« Previous Entry | Back to Blissful Knowledge | Next Entry »


August 12, 2005
PEOPLE CAN'T GET THROUGH THE DAY WITHOUT IT, BUT...

Yes, I'm overdue to post on the hitnakut (disengagement) from Gaza, and we're all running out of time. (Can there be a more productive way to spend Tisha B'Av afternoon?). In lieu of a substantive post, I want to throw this question out to Ben, Prof. Wolff, OOSJ and all other interested parties.

Much of the anti-disengagement rage is directed at the defective nature of the plan's adoption. At one extreme, you have the argument that it would have been much more unifying for the country to have assented in a referendum (I strongly agree). At the other extreme, you have arguments that Israel has completely repudiated democracy by adopting the plan. Much of the criticism that I've seen has leaned more towards the latter extreme. But there's another way to look at things. Currently, the anti-disengagement forces can use the lack of a referendum to rationalize that the broader public may actually support their position. That may provide solace in the immediate crises, but is likely to have long-term costs.

Let's assume for a minute that Sharon had submitted the plan to a referendum, and invested some effort in campaigning for it & explaining why he thought it'd be best for the country. And let's assume further that the referendum would have passed by a comfortable margin, which is a pretty reasonable assumption. (Yes, I have seen arguments that the majority of the country does not, in fact, support the disengagement, and would not back it in a referendum. To be blunt, I think that people who believe that are deluding themselves.)

Would a referendum defeat have made it easier for the current disengagement opponents side to accept the plan? Or would it lead to even greater alienation from the larger society? If the editors of the New York Post were temporarily transplanted to Israel, Ma'ariv's headlines might describe a convincing referendum defeat as "ISRAEL TO YESHA: DROP DEAD." Would Rav Medan take some solace in the voting public's assent to the plan, or would his sense of betrayal at the hands of the secular elites be extended to the general public? I don't know what Rav Medan himself would do (though I know people who could ask him), but I suspect that many of his allies, admirers and followers would face the same dilemma. I suspect that the latter may be true. And that is pretty frightening, because those public sentiments will eventually be expressed in a way too unequivocal to be ignored or rationalized away.

I believe that Religious Zionism, its ideals and followers are resilient enough to withstand the crisis of disengagement. (I think that many of those who argue otherwise are predisposed to doubt Religious Zionsim's legitimacy, whether from the secular left or from the charedi right.)
But the procedural flaws in the Israeli government's adoption of the plan - and there were many - shouldn't be used as a rationalization to assume broader support for the Religious Zionist agenda than actually exists. That will only hurt efforts to influence society along Religious Zionist lines.

Posted by Dr. Manhattan at 12:28 AM |



Comments

My guess is that a referendum or better yet, new elections would have calmed the forces. Rav Shapira would still be in a tizzy about things and there would still be demonstrations- but the sense of betrayal would be less.
What is more important is that new elections or a referendum would have taught Israeli society a good lesson in democracy - that things other than force works.
As for Rav Medan, I think it would have made all the difference. Its the process that is important here (in my humble view).

Dr. M,

I agree with OOSJ that the process was crucial. If nothing else, a referendum or elections would have forced some actual debate of the merits and dangers of the disengagement. No such discussion has taken place.

Rav Medan is angry about the process, especially the hypocrisy of the civil rights crowd that was prepared to sit by while adolescent girls rotted in jail pre-trial, more than he is angry about disengagement itself.

Call me delusional but I'd have bet that disengagement would have lost in a referendum. The polls prior to the Likud referendum showed numbers similar to the polling numbers in the general population now and disengagement lost 60-40. The reason is obvious: the salience of opposition is far greater than that of support.

But Sharon would probably have continued with disengagement even after losing a national referendum. Now THAT would have been a huge catastrophe.

Ben

Ben:
I'd have taken your bet.
I really don't think you can extrapolate from the Likud referendum: in the general population, there is a fairly large segment that would probably have been quite motivated to vote in favor. That segment of the population is barely represented in Likud. Once you get into the larger populace, I don't think it's true that the salience of opposition would necessarily be greater than the support.
I agree that it would have been a catastrophe had Sharon continued with disengagement even after losing a national referendum. I'm not going to make predictions over whether he would or would not have done so (my powers of nevuah have been used up by trying to forecast the consequences of the hitnakut).

The whole idea of the referendum was to delay the disengagement and make it impractical. There was no other motivation behind it whatsoever. The party that submits its will to delusional and criminal rabbis like Shapira and Eliyahu can't preach democracy at the same time.


Blog Archives
March 2008
December 2005
August 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
November 2004
September 2004
August 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
Click for archives by week


Blog Categories
Autism
Baseball
From Blogger
Jewish/Israel
Markets
News
Other
Personal
Politics & Policy
War
Website related


Bloggers & Columnists
&c.
A Small Victory
A Taxing Blog
About Last Night
Agitator
Agonist
Aidel Maidel
Alas, a Blog
Allah
Altercation
Amish Tech Support
Amitai Etzioni
Amygdala
An Unsealed Room
Andrew Ferguson
Andrew Olmstead
Andrew Sullivan
Apt. 11D
Apikorsus Online
Armed Liberal
Arnold Kling
Asymmetrical Information
Atlantic Blog
Back Row of the 'Beis
Balkinization
Balloon Juice
Baraita
Baynonim
Beauty of Gray
Belgravia Dispatch
Ben Chorin
Best of the Web
Bloghead
Bloviator
Brad DeLong
Bring Back Sincerity
Brink Lindsey
Brothers Judd
Buck Stops Here
Buzz Machine
California Insider
CalPundit/Political Animal
CantWatch
Capital Games
Chakira
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Murtaugh
Chayyei Sarah
ChicagoBoyz
Chris Mooney
Clayton Cramer
Colby Cosh
Cold Fury
Common Sense and Wonder
Confessions of an Orthodox Jewish Straight Theatre Queen
Conspiracy to Keep You Poor and Stupid
Command Post
Cooped Up
The Corner
Cornfield Commentary
Corp Law Blog
CounterRevolutionary
Counterspin Central
Crescat Sententia
Critical Mass
Crooked Timber
Croooow Blog
Cut on the Bias
Daily Howler
DailyKOS
Daily Pundit
Daimnation!
Daniel W. Drezner
Daniel Pipes
Dave Barry
David Frum
DefenseTech
Deionychus antirrhopus
Discriminations
Disgusted Liberal
Dr. Weevil
D-Squared Digest
Easterblogg
Economic Principals
EconoPundit
Edge of England's Sword
Eject! Eject! Eject!
Electric Venom
Elizabeth Spiers
Eschaton
Eve Tushnet
Expat Egghead
Frum Dad
Frum Talk
Gawker
GedankenPundit
Gene Expression
George F. Will
Giants and Dwarfs
Gideon's Blog
GirlHock
God of the Machine
Goldberg File
Haggai's Place
Hasidic Rebel
Head Heeb
Hirhurim
Hit and Run
House of Hock
How Appealing
Howard Kurtz
HoyStory
Iberian Notes
Idealogian
Imshin
In the Pipeline
IndePundit
InstaLawyer
InstaPundit
Intel Dump
Invisible Adjunct
Israeli Guy
IsraPundit
IvyJews
Jacob T. Levy
James Lileks
Jason Rylander
Jewish Musings
Joanne Jacobs
John Ellis
John Leo
Jonathan Rauch
Juan Cole
Juan Gato
Junius
Just One Minute
Kausfiles
Ken Layne
Kesher Talk
KickAAS
Kicker
Kieran Healy
The Knowledge Problem
The Kolkata Libertarian
L.A. Examiner
Letter from Gotham
Little Green Footballs
Man Without Qualities
Mark Kleiman
Mark Steyn
Martin Kramer
Marvin Schick
Matt Welch
Matthew Miller
Matthew Yglesias
Max Power
MaxSpeak
MedPundit
MedRants
Meryl Yourish
Michael Barone
Michael Kelly
Michael Lewis
Michael J. Totten
Michelle Malkin
Midwest Conservative Journal
MOChassid
Mullings
Muslim Pundit
Norah Vincent
Norwegian Blogger
The Note
N.Z. Bear
Oliver Willis
One Hand Clapping
Outside the Beltway
Overlawyered
OxBlog
Patio Pundit
Patrick Ruffini
Paul Krugman (unofficial)
Pejman Pundit
PLA
Political Aims
The Poor Man
Porphyrogenitus
Power Line
Priorities and Frivolities
Professor Bainbridge
Protein Wisdom
Protocols
Protocols of the Yuppies of Zion
PunditWatch
QuasiPundit
Rachel Lucas
Rand Simberg
Rantburg
Real Clear Politics
Regions of Mind
Respectful of Otters
Ribbity Frog
Right Wing News
Rob Lyman
Robert Kagan
Roger L. Simon
Safety Valve
Samizdata
Sand in the Gears
Sgt. Stryker
Scrappleface
Sebastian Holsclaw
Seraphic Secret
Shadow of the Hegemon
Shaigetz
Shark Blog
Shiloh Bucher
Silent Running
Sine qua Non Pundit
Somewhere on A1A
Sneaking Suspicions
SoxBlog
SpinSanity
Spinsters
The Spoons Experience
Steve Chapman (Tribune)
Steven Chapman (blog)
Strategy Page
Styx
Tacitus
Tal G. in Jerusalem
Talk Left
Talking Dog
Talking Points Memo
TAPPED
Ted Barlow
This Normal Life
This Woman's Work
Tightly Wound
Tim Blair
Treppenwitz
Town Crier
2Blowhards
Unqualified Offerings
U.S.S. Clueless
Victor Davis Hanson
View from Here
Virginia Postrel
VodkaPundit
The Volokh Conspiracy
Wampum
War Liberal
Where is Raed
William Burton
William Saletan
Winds of Change
Wonkette
Yale Pundits
YUtopia
Zogby Blog


Jewish & Israel
Azure
Bar-Ilan University
Chief Rabbi (UK)
Edah
eParsha
Ha-aretz
Hebrew University
OU Institute for Public Affairs
Israeli Defense Forces
Jerusalem Post
Jerusalem Report
JewishLaw
Jewish Theological Seminary
Jewish Week
Jewish World Review
Jewsweek
Kashrut.com
Meimad
Middle East Media Research Institute
Orthodox Union
Shalem Institute
Kosher Restaurant Database
Soloveitchik Institute
Tanach Study Center
Virtual Beit Midrash
Yeshiva University
Yeshivat Chovevei Torah
YIVO Institute for Jewish Research


Baseball & Other Sports
Aaron's Baseball Blog
Against the Grain
All-Baseball.com
Allen Barra
Always Amazin'
Armchair GM
Astros Daily
Bambino's Curse
Baseball Crank
Baseball Immortals
Baseball Musings
Baseball Prospectus
Baseball Primer
Baseball Outsider
Baseball Reference
Baseball Savant
Baseball Truth
Baseball Widow
Baysball
Bench Coach
Big Bad Baseball
Bill Simmons
Birds in the Belfry
Boy of Summer
Braves Journal
Bronx Banter
Clifford's Big Red Blog
Cub Reporter
Dan Lewis
Dodger Thoughts
Dominican Players
Doug Pappas' Business of Baseball
Dugout Dollars
East Coast Agony
Eddie Kranepool Society
Elephants in Oakland
Football Outsiders
Fun with Win Shares
Futility Infielder
Hardball Times
Honest Wagner
Idiots Write About Sports
Joel Sherman
MLB.com
Mariner Musings
Mike's Baseball Rants
Mudville Magazine
Off-Wing Opinion
Only Baseball Matters
Peter Gammons
Pinstriped Bible
Pinstripe News
Raindrops
Redbird Nation
Replacement Level Yankees Weblog
Retrosheet
Rookie's Life
Rich's Weekend Baseball BEAT
Rob Neyer
SaberMets
Talking Baseball
Thomas Boswell
Thoughts from Diamond Mind Tom Verducci
Transaction Guy
Transition Game
U.S.S. Mariner
Universal Baseball Blog, Inc.
View from the 700 Level
Wait Til Next Year
Weblog that Derek Built
West 116th Street
WhatifSports.com
Will Carroll
Win Shares (in-season)
Yankees, Mets and the Rest


Publications & Policy
American Enterprise Institute
The American Prospect
Arts & Letters Daily
Atlantic Monthly
Brookings Institute
Cato Institute
City Journal
Commentary
Economist
Financial Times
Foreign Affairs
Heritage Foundation
Manhattan Institute
National Review Online
The New Republic
The New Yorker
New York Sun
New York Times
Progressive Policy Institute
RAND
Reason
Resources for the Future
Roll Call
Salon
Slate
Tech Central Station
Wall Street Journal
Washington Monthly
Washington Post
Weekly Standard
Wilson Quarterly


Miscellaneous Links
Bangitout.com
Dilbert Zone
The Great Movies
Neil Gaiman
The Onion
Snopes


Search the Site

Try advanced site search

Site Credits

last 50 hits in



Listed on BlogShares





E-mail Me