« Previous Entry | Back to Blissful Knowledge | Next Entry »


December 12, 2002
HALL OF FAME ELECTIONS, PART 2

This was supposed to be an extended discussion of this year’s candidates for the Hall of Fame.
After working on it for several days and only gotten to half of the viable candidates after several pages, I’ve decided that less is more.
For a more comprehensive look at the candidates, check out Aaron Gleeman’s outstanding overview, with both basic biographical and statistical information on each candidate, as well as an assessment of each candidate’s case. I won’t try to repeat his efforts (i.e. I will free-ride on his)
As mentioned below, David Pinto recently noted an e-mail exchange between us. What prompted my original e-mail to Pinto was that this year’s ballot has an exceptional number of borderline candidates, as opposed to having one or two sure inductees and many clearly unqualified ones, which seems to have been a more common pattern in recent years.
Rob Neyer has made a similar observation:
What's amazing about the current Hall of Fame ballot is how many viable candidates there are, candidates about whom we can argue.
Personally, I would vote for only six players on the ballot (I'll name them later). But I believe I might be wrong about five or six others, and there are still more candidates who have their rabid supporters, and wouldn't be among the most undeserving Hall of Famers if they were elected. There are 33 players on the ballot this time around, and 19 are viable candidates according to at least somebody's standards.

Those 19 players are Bert Blyleven, Gary Carter, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Steve Garvey, Rich Gossage, Keith Hernandez, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Eddie Murray, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, and Alan Trammell. Every one of those 19 players has a decent argument on either analytical premises or based on historical precedents (or both).
I think the current playing environment is distorting the current voting on two levels:
1) Due to the offensive explosion since the mid-1990s, the batting statistics of the current candidates seem superficially less impressive when compared to active players. Specifically, Gary Carter’s numbers – properly regarded as historic in his context – pale besides Mike Piazza’s, and don’t impress as much as they should when compared to Ivan Rodriguez or even Javier Lopez. Dale Murphy’s MVP numbers of the mid-1980s look pedestrian now. Same for Jim Rice; people have focused on his difficult relationship with sportswriters in attempting to explain why he hasn’t been elected, but I think the changed offensive climate is as responsible. (Analysts such as Bill James have pointed out that Rice was very overrated, but I don’t think that the BBWAA voters are using that argument. It’s a case of doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.) Had Eddie Murray not cleared 3,000 hits or 500 HRs, he may have had to wait a while for induction as well.
2) To a lesser extent, the increased concentration of saves in one pitcher and increased specialization of closers over the last 15 years has hurt the prior generation of great closers in the voting – both because the career leaderboards are rapidly being re-written, and that 35 saves isn’t nearly as big of a deal as it was 20 years ago. Examples include Gossage, Sutter, Dan Quisenberry and even Tom Henke.
In short, I would definitely vote for Blyleven, Carter, Gossage, Murray, Sandberg, Trammell, Kaat and John. I would probably vote for Dale Murphy as well, and one surprise candidate who’ll be described below. But there is no candidate out of the 19 listed above whose selection would be a travesty.
I’ve retained one of my original extended discussions, regarding Gossage and Sutter:

Rich Gossage and Bruce Sutter make for a fascinating joint discussion. They were probably the two most feared “firemen” of their time (the term “closer” not commonly used at that time). Gossage’s career was much longer, in part because he bounced around as a back-of-the-bullpen type for a decade after he was no longer an All-Star. And he wasn’t too bad, even in those years. (Contrast that with Steve Carlton’s last couple of years, for example.) Sutter’s career was basically wiped out by arm injuries approximately five minutes after signing a “lifetime” contract with the Atlanta Braves. Oops.
Under Win Shares, Sutter’s 1977 season ranks as barely better than Gossage’s best season (also 1977) by a 27 to 26 margin. Sutter and Gossage each had 3 seasons of over 20 Win Shares. Their primes basically overlapped, and I think it was generally accepted that Sutter was slightly better at their peaks. In the original edition of his Historical Baseball Abstract (published in 1986), Bill James ranked Sutter #1 among relievers for peak value, with Gossage #2. Part of that reputation is probably due to the fact that Sutter closed out four consecutive All-Star games during the time that the NL won every year, and made the American Leaguers look like a bunch of Little Leaguers in the process.
The story is often told about how Sutter’s second-half fades in 1977 and 1978 due to overwork inspired Cubs manager Herman Franks to restrict Sutter’s use to save situations, thus creating the modern “closer” role. I’m not sure if there’s more to the story than that, but if it is true, it may indicate Gossage’s superiority. Gossage pitched over 130 innings in relief 1975, 1977 and 1978 (not to mention 225 innings, along with 15 complete games, in 1976 in an ill-advised experiment as a starter) and was none the worse for wear. After an injury sustained in a famous fight with Cliff Johnson cut short his 1979 season, Gossage’s workload was more reasonable for the rest of his career, but his effectiveness did not seem to be compromised by extensive use the way Sutter’s was.
Based on durability and length of career, I’d pick Gossage over Sutter, and I’d feel comfortable voting Gossage to the Hall of Fame. But the question is whether Sutter qualifies as well. I’ve probably gone back-and-forth on Sutter more than any other candidate on the ballot. At the moment, I probably wouldn’t vote for him based on brevity of career. But I could easily go the other way. Was Bruce Sutter the Sandy Koufax of relievers – i.e., were his peak accomplishments of sufficient magnitude to outweigh his short career? The answer may be “yes.” Yes, I know closers are overrated (though that was less true when they pitched 100-130 innings as Sutter did, as opposed to today’s 65) But Sutter has a reasonable claim to being the best reliever of all time, judged on his peak. If a player can reasonably be called the best ever at his position – including closer - for any length of time, I don’t think we can complain if that player makes the Hall of Fame.
In fact, I just convinced myself. I’d vote for Sutter as well.

Posted by Dr. Manhattan at 11:08 AM |



Comments

I think it's pretty obvious that Eckersley at his peak (1988-1992) was the greatest reliever ever. With the exception of 1977, Sutter was not quite as dominant. It's true that Sutter, for quite a while, could have been called the greatest reliever ever, at peak. But no more.

Aaron:
You have a valid point, but I think the Eckersley-Sutter comparison is analogous to one between Pedro Martinez and Sandy Koufax. Inning-for-inning, Pedro is far more dominant than Koufax was. But Koufax was good for 300 innings in his time, while you're lucky to get 220 with Pedro. Who is contributing more? That's one of the main questions the Win Shares system tries to answer, and I think it's reasonable to conclude that pitching 100-130 high-leverage innings contributes more than 65-80, even if the latter pitcher pitches at a slightly higher level of effectiveness.


Blog Archives
March 2008
December 2005
August 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
November 2004
September 2004
August 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
Click for archives by week


Blog Categories
Autism
Baseball
From Blogger
Jewish/Israel
Markets
News
Other
Personal
Politics & Policy
War
Website related


Bloggers & Columnists
&c.
A Small Victory
A Taxing Blog
About Last Night
Agitator
Agonist
Aidel Maidel
Alas, a Blog
Allah
Altercation
Amish Tech Support
Amitai Etzioni
Amygdala
An Unsealed Room
Andrew Ferguson
Andrew Olmstead
Andrew Sullivan
Apt. 11D
Apikorsus Online
Armed Liberal
Arnold Kling
Asymmetrical Information
Atlantic Blog
Back Row of the 'Beis
Balkinization
Balloon Juice
Baraita
Baynonim
Beauty of Gray
Belgravia Dispatch
Ben Chorin
Best of the Web
Bloghead
Bloviator
Brad DeLong
Bring Back Sincerity
Brink Lindsey
Brothers Judd
Buck Stops Here
Buzz Machine
California Insider
CalPundit/Political Animal
CantWatch
Capital Games
Chakira
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Murtaugh
Chayyei Sarah
ChicagoBoyz
Chris Mooney
Clayton Cramer
Colby Cosh
Cold Fury
Common Sense and Wonder
Confessions of an Orthodox Jewish Straight Theatre Queen
Conspiracy to Keep You Poor and Stupid
Command Post
Cooped Up
The Corner
Cornfield Commentary
Corp Law Blog
CounterRevolutionary
Counterspin Central
Crescat Sententia
Critical Mass
Crooked Timber
Croooow Blog
Cut on the Bias
Daily Howler
DailyKOS
Daily Pundit
Daimnation!
Daniel W. Drezner
Daniel Pipes
Dave Barry
David Frum
DefenseTech
Deionychus antirrhopus
Discriminations
Disgusted Liberal
Dr. Weevil
D-Squared Digest
Easterblogg
Economic Principals
EconoPundit
Edge of England's Sword
Eject! Eject! Eject!
Electric Venom
Elizabeth Spiers
Eschaton
Eve Tushnet
Expat Egghead
Frum Dad
Frum Talk
Gawker
GedankenPundit
Gene Expression
George F. Will
Giants and Dwarfs
Gideon's Blog
GirlHock
God of the Machine
Goldberg File
Haggai's Place
Hasidic Rebel
Head Heeb
Hirhurim
Hit and Run
House of Hock
How Appealing
Howard Kurtz
HoyStory
Iberian Notes
Idealogian
Imshin
In the Pipeline
IndePundit
InstaLawyer
InstaPundit
Intel Dump
Invisible Adjunct
Israeli Guy
IsraPundit
IvyJews
Jacob T. Levy
James Lileks
Jason Rylander
Jewish Musings
Joanne Jacobs
John Ellis
John Leo
Jonathan Rauch
Juan Cole
Juan Gato
Junius
Just One Minute
Kausfiles
Ken Layne
Kesher Talk
KickAAS
Kicker
Kieran Healy
The Knowledge Problem
The Kolkata Libertarian
L.A. Examiner
Letter from Gotham
Little Green Footballs
Man Without Qualities
Mark Kleiman
Mark Steyn
Martin Kramer
Marvin Schick
Matt Welch
Matthew Miller
Matthew Yglesias
Max Power
MaxSpeak
MedPundit
MedRants
Meryl Yourish
Michael Barone
Michael Kelly
Michael Lewis
Michael J. Totten
Michelle Malkin
Midwest Conservative Journal
MOChassid
Mullings
Muslim Pundit
Norah Vincent
Norwegian Blogger
The Note
N.Z. Bear
Oliver Willis
One Hand Clapping
Outside the Beltway
Overlawyered
OxBlog
Patio Pundit
Patrick Ruffini
Paul Krugman (unofficial)
Pejman Pundit
PLA
Political Aims
The Poor Man
Porphyrogenitus
Power Line
Priorities and Frivolities
Professor Bainbridge
Protein Wisdom
Protocols
Protocols of the Yuppies of Zion
PunditWatch
QuasiPundit
Rachel Lucas
Rand Simberg
Rantburg
Real Clear Politics
Regions of Mind
Respectful of Otters
Ribbity Frog
Right Wing News
Rob Lyman
Robert Kagan
Roger L. Simon
Safety Valve
Samizdata
Sand in the Gears
Sgt. Stryker
Scrappleface
Sebastian Holsclaw
Seraphic Secret
Shadow of the Hegemon
Shaigetz
Shark Blog
Shiloh Bucher
Silent Running
Sine qua Non Pundit
Somewhere on A1A
Sneaking Suspicions
SoxBlog
SpinSanity
Spinsters
The Spoons Experience
Steve Chapman (Tribune)
Steven Chapman (blog)
Strategy Page
Styx
Tacitus
Tal G. in Jerusalem
Talk Left
Talking Dog
Talking Points Memo
TAPPED
Ted Barlow
This Normal Life
This Woman's Work
Tightly Wound
Tim Blair
Treppenwitz
Town Crier
2Blowhards
Unqualified Offerings
U.S.S. Clueless
Victor Davis Hanson
View from Here
Virginia Postrel
VodkaPundit
The Volokh Conspiracy
Wampum
War Liberal
Where is Raed
William Burton
William Saletan
Winds of Change
Wonkette
Yale Pundits
YUtopia
Zogby Blog


Jewish & Israel
Azure
Bar-Ilan University
Chief Rabbi (UK)
Edah
eParsha
Ha-aretz
Hebrew University
OU Institute for Public Affairs
Israeli Defense Forces
Jerusalem Post
Jerusalem Report
JewishLaw
Jewish Theological Seminary
Jewish Week
Jewish World Review
Jewsweek
Kashrut.com
Meimad
Middle East Media Research Institute
Orthodox Union
Shalem Institute
Kosher Restaurant Database
Soloveitchik Institute
Tanach Study Center
Virtual Beit Midrash
Yeshiva University
Yeshivat Chovevei Torah
YIVO Institute for Jewish Research


Baseball & Other Sports
Aaron's Baseball Blog
Against the Grain
All-Baseball.com
Allen Barra
Always Amazin'
Armchair GM
Astros Daily
Bambino's Curse
Baseball Crank
Baseball Immortals
Baseball Musings
Baseball Prospectus
Baseball Primer
Baseball Outsider
Baseball Reference
Baseball Savant
Baseball Truth
Baseball Widow
Baysball
Bench Coach
Big Bad Baseball
Bill Simmons
Birds in the Belfry
Boy of Summer
Braves Journal
Bronx Banter
Clifford's Big Red Blog
Cub Reporter
Dan Lewis
Dodger Thoughts
Dominican Players
Doug Pappas' Business of Baseball
Dugout Dollars
East Coast Agony
Eddie Kranepool Society
Elephants in Oakland
Football Outsiders
Fun with Win Shares
Futility Infielder
Hardball Times
Honest Wagner
Idiots Write About Sports
Joel Sherman
MLB.com
Mariner Musings
Mike's Baseball Rants
Mudville Magazine
Off-Wing Opinion
Only Baseball Matters
Peter Gammons
Pinstriped Bible
Pinstripe News
Raindrops
Redbird Nation
Replacement Level Yankees Weblog
Retrosheet
Rookie's Life
Rich's Weekend Baseball BEAT
Rob Neyer
SaberMets
Talking Baseball
Thomas Boswell
Thoughts from Diamond Mind Tom Verducci
Transaction Guy
Transition Game
U.S.S. Mariner
Universal Baseball Blog, Inc.
View from the 700 Level
Wait Til Next Year
Weblog that Derek Built
West 116th Street
WhatifSports.com
Will Carroll
Win Shares (in-season)
Yankees, Mets and the Rest


Publications & Policy
American Enterprise Institute
The American Prospect
Arts & Letters Daily
Atlantic Monthly
Brookings Institute
Cato Institute
City Journal
Commentary
Economist
Financial Times
Foreign Affairs
Heritage Foundation
Manhattan Institute
National Review Online
The New Republic
The New Yorker
New York Sun
New York Times
Progressive Policy Institute
RAND
Reason
Resources for the Future
Roll Call
Salon
Slate
Tech Central Station
Wall Street Journal
Washington Monthly
Washington Post
Weekly Standard
Wilson Quarterly


Miscellaneous Links
Bangitout.com
Dilbert Zone
The Great Movies
Neil Gaiman
The Onion
Snopes


Search the Site

Try advanced site search

Site Credits

last 50 hits in



Listed on BlogShares





E-mail Me